9 Questions to Stump Omnivores

You may have fallen privy in the past to one of numerous similar examples by creationists of their 26 questions for evolutionists. More recently vaccination deniers have come up with their own 9 Questions That Stump Every Pro-Vaccine Advocate and Their Claims. Clearly these groups think these are effective tactics for the positions they are trying to promote. The problem for both of these groups, however, is that their questions only attest to their ignorance of the science they are hoping to debunk. This post is an attempt to take the positive idea of asking questions, but hopefully using sources with a bit more knowledge than creationists or anti-vax groups.

1)

There are barbarians who seize this dog, who so greatly surpasses man in fidelity and friendship, and nail him down to a table and dissect him alive, to show you the mesaraic veins! You discover in him all the same organs of feeling as in yourself. Answer me, mechanist, has Nature arranged all the springs of feeling in this animal to the end that he might not feel?
Voltaire (Dictionnaire philosophique portatif, 1764)

The mechanist Voltaire mentions is actually a reference to the idea that all things, including living things can be understood solely by understanding the laws of nature and some initial set of conditions. Life under this view is no more than a complex machine that could be broken down into component parts and better understood. This reductionism is very much essential to science, and everything we know does suggest that nature abides by its own laws. Rene Descartes was a proponent of mechanism in most cases, but struggled with the idea that the human mind and consciousness that he experienced could be explained simply by natural interactions. Descartes posited that in the case of humans we must posses some “mental substance” that was not material to explain all the sensations we feel in our lives, but that non-human animals did not have this additional mental component and thus could not feel pain. This argument was used to justify immensely cruel acts in the 17th and 18th centuries and it was in the context of these cruel acts that Voltaire raised his challenging question. Clearly there is no logical reason why we should find the mechanisms for feeling in non-human animals if they are not to feel; nonetheless, this Cartesian argument is still one we hear commonly raised today.

2)

Another way to do it would be to hybridize humans and chimpanzees, produce an actual hybrid, and the point of the novel would be to explore the implications. What effect would that have on society? What effect would that have on moral philosophy? What effect would that have on religion?
Richard Dawkins (Point of Inquiry, Dec. 7 2007)

At present our legal system has not defined the place a human chimpanzee hybrid would inhabit. Should it be granted the same freedoms we enjoy ourselves? Should it be subjected to the same confinement and experimentation we would subject chimpanzees to? What about a 3/4 or a 1/4 human version? Perhaps this blurring of our own species line might finally make clear that species should not be the morally relevant characteristic that determines whether a being deserves consideration for its interests.

3)

But if the experimenter claims that the experiment is important enough to justify inflicting suffering on animals, why is it not important enough to justify inflicting suffering on humans at the same mental level?
Peter Singer (Animal Liberation, 2002, p.83)

People who try to justify rights for only humans often do so on the basis that humans have some exceptional mental characteristic. There are certainly a number of things we see humans doing that we do not see amongst other animals, but these things aren't things done by all humans. When we use these rules to justify differential treatment for human and non-human animals we need to acknowledge that humans who do not meet the requirements for these rules do not receive the protections from these rules.

4)

The day has been, I grieve to say in many places it is not yet past, in which the greater part of the species, under the denomination of slaves, have been treated by the law exactly upon the same footing, as, in England for example, the inferior races of animals are still. The day may come when the rest of the animal creation may acquire those rights which never could have been witholden from them but by the hand of tyranny. The French have already discovered that the blackness of the skin is no reason a human being should be abandoned without redress to the caprice of a tormentor. It may one day come to be recognized that the number of the legs, the villosity of the skin, or the termination of the os sacrum are reasons equally insufficient for abandoning a sensitive being to the same fate. What else is it that should trace the insuperable line? Is it the faculty of reason or perhaps the faculty of discourse? But a full-grown horse or dog, is beyond comparison a more rational, as well as a more conversable animal, than an infant of a day or a week or even a month, old. But suppose the case were otherwise, what would it avail?
Jeremy Bentham (Introduction to the Principles of Morals and Legislation, 1789)

Perhaps you don't speak quite the same way as Bentham did in 1789, but those who treat human and non-human animals by different sets of standards ought to be able to answer what it is that traces the insuperable line. Bentham also makes the excellent point that even if humans are more reasonable than non-human animals this doesn't mean non-human animals should be subjected without redress to the caprice of a tormentor. Bentham answers the question of the insuperable line for himself suggesting that the ability to suffer is what traces the line.

5)

But if we should ask these profound expositors of God’s intentions, How about those man-eating animals - lions, tigers, alligators - which smack their lips over raw man? Or about those myriads of noxious insects that destroy labor and drink his blood? Doubtless man was intended for food and drink for all these? […] Now, it never seems to occur to these far- seeing teachers that Nature’s object in making animals and plants might possibly be first of all the happiness of each one of them, not the creation of all for the happiness of one. Why should man value himself as more than a small part of the one great unit of creation?
John Muir (A Thousand-Mile Walk to the Gulf, 1916)

I often hear from omnivores that animals eat each other, therefore that somehow justifies us eating them, strangely with no bother to explain how herbivorous cattle made their way onto our menus. Nevertheless, whenever any animal tries to return the favor upon a member of human-kind the act is universally condemned. How is it people determined that non-human animals were placed here for our consumption, but certainly not us for theirs? We are a much smaller part of this cosmos than could have ever been realized in Muir's time. We should be grateful to enjoy a part in it, but we certainly do not properly appreciate its beauty if we believe the cosmos, in all of its entirety, was created solely for our own purposes.

6)

If a group of beings from another planet were to land on Earth - beings who considered themselves as superior to you as you feel yourself to be to other animals - would you concede them the rights over you that you assume over other animals?
(Possibly)George Bernard Shaw

This quote has been repeated in a number of different forms by a number of different people. I most commonly see it attributed to George Bernard Shaw; although, I was unable to track down the original source in which it appeared, so take that attribution with a grain of salt. The point of this comment, however, is fairly clear. There may very well exist beings in this universe whose intellect and technological prowess far exceeds our own. To them, we may not appear particularly exceptional amongst the numerous beings that inhabit this planet (or region of the universe). Most of us agree that it wouldn't be right for them to treat us as we currently treat non-human animals, but why not?

7)

Consider those unfortunate mentally impaired people who have much less capacity to solve problems, to care for themselves, to communicate, to engage in social relationships and to feel pain, than do apes. What is the logic that forbids medical experiments on those people, but not on apes?
Jared Diamond (The Rise and Fall of the Third Chimpanzee, 1991)

Perhaps these severely mentally impaired humans have less impaired humans who deeply care about them and would be hurt by their loss, but it is not out of the question to find severely mentally impaired orphans whose disappearance would not particularly concern anyone. I suspect many of us would still find it wrong to subject them to excruciating experiments or to keep them confined and lonely without social interaction. Yet many great apes capable of enjoying life at a seemingly much higher level are subjected to these sorts of conditions regularly. Why do we allow this to happen, but forbid the experiments on much less deserving humans?

8)

When nonvegetarians say that “human problems come first” I cannot help wondering what exactly it is they are doing for human beings that compels them to continue to support the wasteful, ruthless exploitation of farm animals.
Peter Singer (Animal Liberation, 2002, p.221)

I understand that this is not an actual question, but I have chosen to include it since it can easily be reworded as such. I can easily see people believing that they are personally more equipped to deal with issues pertaining to humans than non-humans, but even so, there is no reason to continue to support the exploitation of non-human animals just because you have put human issues as your primary concern.

9)

Why should species, genus, and family be relevant to the assignment of legal rights?
Steven M. Wise (Drawing the Line: Science and the Case for Animal Rights, p.24)

Steven Wise is an excellent animal rights author, and makes an important point early on in his book. Linnaean categorizations should not be what determines whether a being is deserving of rights. Only the characteristics of each individual should be relevant to determining the consideration each receives.

Humor Toward Vegans?

I was perusing College Humor when I decided to do a search for anything they had relevant to the term 'vegan'. I had expected most of the results I got to be humor made at vegans' expense, but some of the results I found seemed to be much more sinister than that.

You were a vegan. You decided to constantly tell us how disgusting we were for eating meat, dairy, and the multitude of other things that even partially contain animal products. So one day, when you weren't there, I microwaved some beef stew. Then I sprinkled the broth all over your bed. You slept in cow death for weeks before you washed those sheets. I still smile a little bit every time I think of it.
Danielle Pierce, Kent State University

Sean. You're a wonderful guy, but living together means sharing responsibilities. Like washing up. Or buying new toilet paper. Or not having your idiotic girlfriend over and stealing my parking spot. So I know you're a vegan and made me get a separate fridge for my meat and beer, but you can't keep cooking that foul-smelling crap before you go to class at 6 in the morning. So you remember that one time that your tofurkey tasted so delicious? I took it upon myself to smear everything that belonged to you in the fridge with my bacon. And your door handle. And your toothbrush. Isn't veganism delicious?
Jimmy English, The College of New Jersey

Freshman year, my roommate was the definition of a pussy. The thing that pissed me off most was that he was a vegan. I would eat a burger and he would bitch me out. So one night me an bunch of buddies from our dorm filled his bed with lobsters and steak. His reaction was priceless. He flipped shit and ran out of the room crying. He went home and didn't come back for two weeks. He immediately filed for a room change and when he came to get his shit out of our dorm, he wouldn't even look at me.
Mike, School Not Given

I understand that to most people these will seem like innocent college pranks done in good humor. I know I have quite the rap sheet of pranks from my college days as well. Nonetheless, suppose for a moment that these pranks were pulled not against vegans, but against strictly religious students. A female is bothered by the strict lifestyle her Muslim roommate is constantly trying to push, so she puts pork in her burqa. A male student is bothered by his strict Jewish roommate not sharing his kosher silverware, so he covers his bed in shellfish. These aren't innocent pranks, they are acts of property damage done against someone because of their religious beliefs and would be considered in many areas to be hate crimes.

I'm not trying to argue that these pranks should be treated like violent crimes because a religion is involved. Unlike what the AETA seems to claim, property damage is not terrorism. Nonetheless, these are still criminally harmful acts. Yet the only difference between the religious examples and what has been done to these vegans is that the ethical beliefs in the case of the vegans do not require an appeal to the supernatural, and thus the vegans receive less protection under the law. In the United States, at the very least, people receiving less protection under the law because of their religion, including the lack of religion, should be viewed as a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. I am admittedly no legal expert, but I would love to see the FFRF or the ACLU take up the case of one of these vegan students.

This isn't to say humor can't be made at the expense of vegans. I found this example which did a fine job of it:

Real roommate ad 1:
"I'm 24, vegan, easy to get along with. I tend to be a bit clutter-happy, but keep the common areas tidy. I like to have guests over now and then, yours can come too! Would like to keep the kitchen vegetarian if possible."

Translation: I'm 24, passive-aggressive and self-righteous. I'm a hoarder, but if you push my stuff out of the way, you can sit down on the couch. I like to have guests over at all hours. Yours can come too, but should be willing to engage in vegetarian activities. Don't dare bring meat or milk into my apartment or I'll slaughter you in your sleep. Did I mention I was vegan?

Historic Vegan News

I have used the Google News feature to track down two of the oldest articles mentioning veganism that I can find and was quite tickled by these early depictions of vegans.

The first article comes from the January 28, 1953 edition of the Milwaukee Sentinel:

Vegans Eat No Meat, Lose Sense of Humor

DO YOU KNOW what a vegan is? If not, please be informed that a vegan is a vegetarian who, in addition to abstaining from meat, also abstains from dairy products. Are you a steak enthusiast? So am I. Do you know how the vegetarians and vegans refer to us? They say we “are addicted to the taste of dead flesh.”
A vegetarian diet may have some advantages but it seems to inspire those who follow it to express themselves in a nasty way. Also a vegetarian with a sense of humor appears to be a distinct rarity. When they do have a sense of humor it is more sarcastic and biting than kindly. As for example, George Bernard Shaw's sense of humor.

It seems the stereotype of vegans not having a sense of humor is much older than I had imagined and dates back to nearly the beginning of the term 'vegan'.

Combating this stereotype is not an easy one as rights for anyone is a very serious matter. Imagine someone who was bothered by the evil of racism hearing a friend make a racist joke. They would likely not laugh, but rather attempt to clarify their righteous discontent with their friend. The friend, however, most likely still feels that there was no harm in their humor and that the joke merely went unappreciated by their humorless companion. It is easy to see vegans being perceived in a similar way for their attempts to defend animals. Nevertheless, I still laughed when reading such an outlandish title as “Vegans eat no meat, lose sense of humor,” and at the cheap pot shot they made at the expense of George Bernard Shaw who had passed away a mere 3 years prior.

The second article comes from the January 12, 1956 edition of the Beaver Valley Times:

Lack Of Protein In Diet Causes Variety of Ills

A vegan, I am able to tell you (Webster doesn't), is a vegetarian who excludes from his diet not just meat, fish, and fowl, but also milk, butter, cheese, and eggs.
Signs of nutritional deficiency in vegans are (1) sore tongue; (2) pricking, tingling or creeping on the skin without apparent cause; (3) in women, amenorrhea and other menstrual disturbances; (4) pains in back and spine, stiff back, called “vegan back.”
These signs or symptoms occur less frequently in Dutch vegans than in British vegans, and seldom if at all in American vegans.
The total protein intake of British vegans is seven per cent, of Dutch vegans nine per cent, of American vegans nearly 10½ per cent, according to biochemical examinations of vegans apparently in good health (but most of whom had had sore tongue at some time), as reported by Wokes, Badenoch and Sinclair in Am. J. Clinical Nutrition.
THESE INVESTIGATORS state that British vegans do not consume the only vegetable foods (seaweeds and ground nuts such as peanuts) known to contain vitamin B-12. They suggest that vitamin B-12 deficiency is responsible for the definite illnesses that have gradually developed after several years in some British vegetarians who have excluded milk, cheese, butter and eggs from their diet. Milk, skim milk, separator milk, buttermilk, cheese and eggs are excellent sources of protein as good as meat protein for human nutrition.
I have known, observed and examined numerous vegetarians and it seems to me they have as much vite as people who eat fish, fowl and meat. I have not had the opportunity to examine any vegans, however.
NOT FROM PERSONAL observation but from general reading I have formed the impression that vegetarians vegetate. I do not mean to imply that they “do little but eat and grow,” but rather that they “lead a passive existence without initiative” (as Webster says). In other words, they are not aggressive.
I shall continue eating meat, fish or fowl daily if I can get it, but if I had to kill my own I'd probably become vegetarian.

I immediately recognized the first two symptoms of nutritional deficiency in vegans as being signs of B-12 deficiency. It is interesting that as early as 1956 some medical professionals had already noticed and identified this deficiency in vegans; although, they wrongly claim that seaweed and ground nuts are reliable sources of B-12.

I managed to track down the original study being referenced, which is truly phenomenal for its time. The study managed to track down 235 vegans of three different nationalities and assessed several different health factors. Nearly all of these early vegans had low B-12 levels and many were showing signs of serious deficiency.

Despite the clear and obvious symptoms of B-12 deficiency, the main focus of the newspaper article seems to be on protein, which continues to be a public misconception to this day. I sure am glad that the phrase 'vegan back' has died off however. That would certainly be a major pain in the (vegan) back to have to answer constantly.

The final bit of the article is perhaps the most disturbing. It attempts to claim that vegans, who have clearly taken initiative by choosing their diet, “lead a passive existence without initiative”. It is nice of them to at least clarify that we are not aggressive, much better than Lierre Keith does in this interview, where she practically describes herself as a violent, cannibalistic rapist while she was a vegan (I exaggerate a little, but not much). For more on Lierre's book The Vegetarian Myth I recommend checking out our closest companion blog Skeptical Vegan.

Science OR Fiction

This post is an idea I have taken from the Skeptic's Guide to the Universe podcast, which has a weekly segment by the same name. Science or fiction will work slightly differently on Vegan Skeptic. I will find three claims made within the vegan community, two based in truth and one entirely fictitious. I will give you a quote where the claim was made and its original source. Your goal is to read through the claims and decide for yourself which one is the fiction. I will then give the answers at the bottom of the post and cite first hand sources affirming or contradicting each of the claims.

Item 1: “Aurora Dairy/Horizon Organic (owned by Dean Foods) is one large, organic-certified farm that got caught violating 14 organic dairy laws, including confining their animals and denying them grazing.” Alicia Silverstone's The Kind Life.

Item 2: “Beef would cost $30 a pound if it weren't subsidized.” Best answer to this question.
“If beef weren't subsidized, it would cost about 30 dollars a pound for the consumer.” Blog post for a Vegan Restaurant

Item 3: “one medium egg contains a massive 213 mg of cholesterol. Considering that the recommended daily intake of cholesterol is 300 mg maximum daily, the consumption of even one egg per day closes in on recommended maximum dosages.” Vegan Animal Blog

Here is an image to prevent you from cheating ahead to the answers while you make up your mind:


Item 1: Science
Read the Notice of Proposed Revocation filed with the USDA for yourself. There are 14 violations listed, several of which seem to involve confinement and denial of grazing.

Item 2: Fiction
US beef production in 2009 was 26.07 billion pounds according to the USDA and has remained in the high 20-billions for the past several years.

All farm subsidies paid by the US government in 2009 amounted to $15.4 billion dollars (Typical years may be anywhere from 10-25 billion)

Even if all of these subsidies went solely to reducing the cost of beef, ignoring all other meats and all other agricultural products, this would still amount to only a 59 cent subsidy per pound of beef in 2009 and a similar amount in other recent years. It is difficult to see the price of beef jumping to $30 a pound simply by removing these subsidies.

Item 3: Science
When we go to the supermarket to find eggs, virtually all the eggs we see available for sale are advertised as large or extra-large, so we have become fairly accustomed to these as being an ordinary size for the eggs we buy and would likely call an egg advertised as being large as being fairly medium in our own experience. In actuality other egg sizes are sold. In the United States, medium eggs range from 50-57 grams while large eggs range from 57-64 grams (other nations have different standards). According to Wolfram Alpha, a medium egg contains between 123 and 159 milligrams of cholesterol while a large egg contains between 184 and 239 milligrams of cholesterol. The estimate of 213 milligrams seems pretty reasonable for what is classified as a large egg in the United States; although, it would be entirely reasonable to refer to this as “medium” in standard parlance.

Vegan Music Playlist

Free Me by Goldfinger


Eat Pussy Not Cows by Jesse Vital


Human(e) Meat by Propagandhi


Vegan Freak Radio Theme Song by Rat and K@!


Ready To Fall by Rise Against


Get Up by Goldfinger


Meat is Murder by The Smiths


Free Kevin Kjonaas by Goldfinger


Meat is Still Murder by Propagandhi


Open Your Eyes by Goldfinger


In This World by Good Charlotte


No Bones No Blood by Jah Sun


Meat Means Murder by Conflict


The Way It Is by Vegan Reich


Struggle to Survive by Freya


For the Sake of the Voiceless by New Winds


Soft Machine by By Divine Right


911 For Peace by Anti-Flag


Animal in Man by Dead Prez


One Species by xTrue Naturex


Other Songs without samples I could link to:
Ex Straightedge Ex by Good Clean Fun
Vegan Revolution Draft Dodger Anthem by Good Clean Fun

Giving Thanks

One of the worst consequences the animal rights movement faces is having its activists become burned out. Many of us remember our first days after we opened our eyes to the interests of non-human animals, the passion we felt to do anything, everything, just so we could feel like we were doing something. Often times this early excitement can lead us to try a lot of things that are unproductive or even unnecessarily dangerous, but many more times it does a great deal of good for the animals as well. Some of us manage to maintain this enthusiasm for years to come, but along the way, many of the activists we once knew will become burned out from activism and this can leave many animals suffering that may have otherwise been saved.

It is entirely understandable why people become burned out. I cannot even begin to recount to you all the negative responses I've gotten from people by merely identifying as an animal rights activist in front of them. When handing out Vegan Outreach literature I have probably received nearly a thousand snide remarks from people telling me how much they love meat. Like any good activist I'll take this with a smile and an affirmation of their experience while trying to open up a conversation with them, but such consistent dismissal is trying on even the toughest hearted of us.

Admittedly out of every thousand people you talk to there will be a handful who will thank you for what you are doing, but for me, the experiences that have the biggest impact and that keep me leafleting into the future is the one person out of every couple thousand who comes back to me later and says, “This had an impact on me. I have changed my diet because of what you've done. Thank you.” Without a doubt, many more people get away without ever getting the chance to thank us for what we've done, but those few thanks we do receive make a world of difference in keeping activists working on behalf of all animals.

People Who Changed Me

This post is also a chance for me to thank those who have had an impact on me.

Almost exactly two years ago now Eleni Vlachos and Rob Gilbride were on tour around the country showing off Eleni's documentary “Seeing Through The Fence”, playing music with their band, and leafleting colleges along the way. At the time I was a couple of months into running a vegan club I had started at my university, and they offered to stop by along their way, inviting us to leaflet the campus with them and offering to show their documentary if we were willing to present it. That was the first time I had ever leafleted and I was incredibly nervous at the time confronting people with information in such a fashion. Eleni and Rob were excellent teachers and after handing out only a few booklets I was feeling much more comfortable. I have now handed out well over 15,000 Vegan Outreach booklets along with engaging in countless other forms of activism, and I would have never had the nerve to have started if not for the two of them.

Brian Grupe is a full-time paid leafleter for Vegan Outreach. In early June of 2009 most colleges had already let out and Brian was leafleting some local high schools that were still in session, one of which my younger brother happened to still be attending. My brother saw the booklets Brian was handing out and immediately recognized them as being the same ones I had showed him in my own room. He called me up on the spot thinking this was some sort of joke I was pulling on him, and upon finding out it wasn't put me on the line with Brian. Since then Brian has taken me under his wing as an activist. He has taught me huge amounts about being an effective advocate for the animals and has been kind and encouraging along the way. There are without a doubt people who are vegan today who would not be if not for the voice Brian has given me.

On March 1st, 2008 I was a lone vegetarian who didn't know a single other vegan or vegetarian in the world. On March 2nd I found the Vegan Freak podcast and Bob and Jenna Torres ended up changing me forever. By the end of the month I was vegan, never to look back. Bob and Jenna made me realize that being vegan was possible, realistic, and that it could even be somewhat humorous at times despite the seriousness of the issue. For me they were the long overdue straw to break the camel's back and for that I certainly owe them my thanks.

What Keeps Me Going

There is also one piece of thanks that I have received that I'd like to share. This came from someone who attended one of the meetings of my vegan club late last year in hopes of writing a report on us. She ended up not writing the report, but sticking with the meetings, eventually turning vegan herself and is now an active part of running the club. I received this message from her a few months ago.

i still haven't gotten over that feeling of standing on the table and shouting at all the people [...] eating their nasty [...] omni meals. i am so eager to tell people i am vegan.. i almost go out of my way to tell people. i guess i am proud. i wish people would ask me questions about it instead of just saying, "oh i could never do that"... and anytime i do try to say something i feel like they are automatically turned off by not only the idea, but of ever hanging out with me for fear of being 'lectured'.

[...] sometimes it is just a bit overwhelming to think of the blissfully unaware and deliberately unaware people. i can't believe that vegans are the minority! i mean how on earth could it be that such tremendous cruelty and pain and suffering is the norm???

hmph. i am very proud of the decision i have made... thanks for helping me see the light [...] i really am eternally grateful.

To the person who wrote me this message, I just want you to know that the small effort you made to share this with me is paying dividends for the animals many times over now.

Please feel free to share stories of people who have influenced you toward helping animals in the comments, but more importantly share the story of how they helped you with them! Send them an e-mail, a facebook message, or even tell them in person. It will mean a ton to them and make a huge difference for the animals.

Vegans Are Awesome

A brand new video made by VeganSkeptic.



We should always make sure our arguments stand up to reason and evidence, but once we've accomplished that, then making veganism seem cool is absolutely worthwhile if that is what will help the animals.